In This Section Pip Meets the Pale Young Gentleman Again Whose Name Is
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Mod
This re-cap is from Peter, I wasn't sure if he was up to posting it quite yet. I'm sorry Peter if yous were ready. (Mine are never this good). :-)
In Chapter 11 we render with Pip to Satis Business firm to visit Miss Havisham. One time over again, Pip is met at the gate past Estella, who first admits Pip, so locks the gate behind him, and, once again, leads him down a darkened passage with a candle. Pip is taken to a gloomy room and told to stand by a window until he is summoned. In this same room were three ladies and 1 gentleman who Pip decides are all "toadies and humbugs." Estella returns, leads Pip down yet another night passage conveying a candle. Estella all of a sudden stops, asks Pip what he thinks of her and, not getting a suitable answer, slaps Pip'south face. Not the best way to begin a visit to someone's home.
The next event occurs when Pip meets a man on the stairs who was "burly" with "an exceedingly dark complexion." This upshot is discouraging likewise equally the homo says " I have a pretty big experience of boys, and you're a bad set of fellows." The human being bits "the side of his keen forefinger" which Pip notices "smelt of scented soap" and the proceeds downward the stairs. If these outset events at Satis House are non enough to discourage even the best of people, Pip then meets Miss Havisham who tells Pip to become into an adjoining room.
If the opening events of this affiliate take not yet been Kafka-ish plenty, Pip finds himself in a spacious room "covered with dust and mould." In the center of a table sabbatum something that "seeming to grow, like a black fungus." To complete the scene we read of "speckled-legged spiders ... mice ...blackbeetles [and] crawling things." Miss Havisham tells Pip the object is her "bride-cake."
Questions:
Can you recall any Dickens novel that has been so continuously disturbing and bizarre in its opening chapters?
There must be some reason for the extravagant and lush writing of Dickens. What are your speculations?
Miss Havisham orders Pip to "Walk me, walk me!" For a moving picture/TV producer this must be a delightful scene to create for viewers. Estella is summoned back into this room of merry-get-circular Miss Havisham and appears once more with "her calorie-free" and brings the three woman and the gentleman Pip saw earlier in the discarded garden. Still Pip pushes Miss Havisham around the room. Miss Havisham proceeds to point out where the Pocket family - the three women and one gentleman Pip met earlier - will stand to view her corpse. Who or what is well-nigh tattered, degraded and rust-covered ... the wedding cake or Miss Havisham? I keep thinking Tristram could brand this affiliate into a grand film noir.
Finally, Pip is taken downwards to the yard and "fed in the former dog similar manner."
Now, where have we seen this description earlier? Hmmmm...
Pip, at present in a fated and unused garden, comes across "a pale young gentleman" who says to Pip "Come up and fight" and so proceeds to pull Pip's hair and butts Pip in the tum. Pip hits him, and hits him again, and hits the pale young gentleman hard. Pip records " that the more I striking him, the harder I hit him." As Pip leaves Satis Business firm he sees on Estella's face "a bright affluent ... as though something had happened to delight her." Estella invites Pip to kiss her.
And and then, after what must have been a very bizarre and exhausting day, Pip leaves the field of boxing and Satis Business firm with the memory of Estella's cheek on his lips and heads towards dwelling house. The chapter ends with the words "where Joe's furnace was flinging a path of burn down across the road."
Questions:
Why do you call up Estella's cheek had a "bright flush" and she permit Pip buss her?
What do you make of the abiding references to ruined gardens, dark passages, and Estella'southward association with light.
As mentioned earlier in our discussions, at that place seems to be a disproportionate use of physical hurting and violence in this novel. From Mrs. Joe's bringing both Joe and Pip "by hand," to Pip's convict turning Pip upside down and threatening to eat him, to Estella slapping Pip's face, to the Satis House boxing lucifer the novel is a very physical one. Can you call up any other Dickens novel that is and so physical?
What might exist the reason(s) for such a physical novel?
Once once more, Dickens ends the chapter on a very ambiguous and perhaps symbolic note. Practice you lot see any suggestive meanings in the terminal sentence of the affiliate?
As ever, your own ideas, insights and comments are welcome.
message 2: past Peter (new)
Mod
Hello Kim
No worries.
I've got chapters 12&13 ready to become. If you/Tristram want the honour of posting the first of our new chapter commentaries please practice so. Either of you deserve to launch our new venture.
I will be waiting at The Iii Jolly Bargemen for a respond. Failing that, I understand the 21C has a affair called a PM. Simply let me know. :-)
Mod
Kim wrote: "Why exercise you lot recollect Estella's cheek had a "bright flush" and she permit Pip kiss her?"
Did she think Pip and the pale young gentleman were fighting over her, and Pip won, so she was rewarding the winner?
I cannot, off the top of my head, call back of any other Dickens novel that is so physically painful. I think that Estella is excited past the violence.
The final paragraph is actually intriguing:
"......when I neared dwelling house the light on the spit of sand off the point on the marshes was gleaming confronting a blackness night-sky, and Joe'due south furnace was flinging a path of burn down beyond the route."
A path of fire is a path of life, of danger and perhaps passion. 1 might also call back back to chapter 5 when Joe provides the burn for the sergeants. Joe'due south fire provides livelihood for the family and likewise provides a means of capturing the convicts.
In chapter viii we meet Miss Havisham as a figure without burn down. She's "a skeleton in the ashes" of her clothes. Pip sees Estelle in Chapter 8 "laissez passer among the extinguished fires."
It's probably overly simple, but I run across that perhaps "fire" will be the sign of life and nurturance, every bit it'southward associated with Joe but a more than complicated symbol when it comes to the residents of Satis House.
bulletin 5: by Peter (new)
Mod
Lowest wrote: "Kim wrote: "Why do yous think Estella's cheek had a "bright flush" and she let Pip osculation her?"
Did she call up Pip and the stake young admirer were fighting over her, and Pip won, so she was rewardin..."
Yes. That'south what I'm thinking too. Estella seems quite pleased that she can be the cause of pain betwixt men.
bulletin vi: by Peter (new)
Mod
Natalie wrote: "I cannot, off the top of my head, remember of whatsoever other Dickens novel that is so physically painful. I think that Estella is excited by the violence.
The final paragraph is really intriguing:
"........."
Natalie
I like your comments and how you take drawn earlier points of the story into your reply.
I don't think yous are beingness "overly simple" at all. Indeed, that is why I suggested we should consider the final sentence clearly. To me, and perhaps it is at to the lowest degree partly because of the weekly format in publishing GE, Dickens seems to exist writing a very direct and conspicuously focussed novel so far.
Then, here you all are. Is this a parallel universe, but in this universe GE has a different ending?
I was surprised with the ease with which Pip dispatched his much taller fancy-footed opponent. Where did that come from? How many times did he drop him, two, iii times? Pip, y'all've been holding out on united states.
I agree with Natalie and Kim every bit to Estella'south motives. Nevertheless is it possible she'south a bit flattered too? She'southward young and maybe feeling a bit of both.
As well, there are several descriptions -- a withered mitt for one -- indicating Miss Havisham is beyond her forties. But as Jonathan pointed out back in that other universe, this could be Pip projecting his impression of her from that rather shocking first meeting (my words, not Jonathan's).
Mod
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "I was surprised with the ease with which Pip dispatched his much taller fancy-footed opponent. Where did that come from? How many times did he drop him, 2, three times? ."
First of all, welcome Xan! I'yard glad yous found the new group so quickly.
Now every bit to Pip, I'm not surprised. He's a country boy, living past the forge, roaming out on the marshes, then I'k sure he'south had his share of difficult work, perhaps practicing with the blacksmith'southward hammer and anvil, just outdoors much of the time, whereas it seems as though the pale swain is probably a city male child, not living mostly indoors (which is what I take the pale to reverberate), and probably protected past his parents from the rough and tumble of life.
Why he challenges Pip to a fight I have no thought, though -- does anybody accept an idea nigh that? Is it because Pip is a stranger intruding in what he sees as his infinite? Or is he in honey with Estella and sees Pip as a rival? What's might exist his reasons for immediately challenging Pip?
Thanks, Everyman.
Your point near Pip is a probably right on and pretty much what Jonathan said to me over in that other place. I call back the fancy-footed bad boxer sees Pip as a rival. Didn't he challenge Pip immediately following Pip telling him he was with Estella? I wonder how many young men Estella might have lurking in the dark halls of Satis Business firm. Proficient recall Pip tin can defend himself.
Satis House.
Satis is an Indian give-and-take that describes the act of a widow throwing herself on her married man'due south funeral pyre. Combine this with that first impression nosotros all accept of Miss Havisham sitting in the room in which time has stopped, and it raises some interesting questions about her. Might keep it in mind as we read on.
I didn't know what Satis meant, but having read enough of Dickens that when I saw it I immediately looked it upwards and said to myself hmmm... At that place's even a Wikipedia entry for Satis.
Everyman wrote: "Why he challenges Pip to a fight I have no idea, though -- does everyone take an idea well-nigh that? Is information technology because Pip is a stranger intruding in what he sees every bit his space? Or is he in love with Estella and sees Pip as a rival? What's might be his reasons for immediately challenging Pip?"
I've often wondered most this. Having two girls, I thought maybe information technology'south just a boy thing. The pale boy doesn't seem to be specially ambitious or fierce; he approaches Pip in much the aforementioned mode as if he was asking if Pip wanted to play catch. Perhaps Estella put him upward to it, which certainly wouldn't surprise me.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Satis House.
Satis is an Indian discussion that describes the act of a widow throwing herself on her husband'southward funeral pyre. Combine this with that first impression we all have of Miss Havisham sitting ..."
This was a fascinating and illuminating tidbit, and leads me to see things quite differently than when because its Latin meaning, "plenty".
message 13: by Peter (last edited Feb 02, 2017 07:46PM) (new)
Modern
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Satis House.
Satis is an Indian word that describes the act of a widow throwing herself on her husband'south funeral pyre. Combine this with that first impression we all have of Miss Havisham sitting ..."
Yep. Your hmmm is very understandable. I accept always simply taken the give-and-take to exist equally information technology is stated to hateful in the text in Chapter VIII. As nosotros know, Dickens does enjoy language, and creating double meanings with character names and the like. A recent volume I read The Ideas in Things: Fugitive Meaning in the Victorian Novel has as well scraped some rust off my spider sense.
Mod
Information technology is wonderful to see you all here. I practice believe that I am now all caught upwardly reading all the comments and I'k finally going to bed. :-)
Mod
What I liked about that strange pale boy is his sense of fairness - autonomously, maybe from ramming his head into Pip'south chest in order to give him a reason for a fight. After all, he sets down some rules for the fight and fifty-fifty provides a sponge and a bottle of water - for the use of both parties, equally he says. The stake boy might consider Pip as an intruder, and information technology might even have something to do with Estella. Information technology tin be the case that Miss Havisham has that boy around, also, for no other purpose than Estella to "interruption his heart".
I also said in the other thread that Estella's delight showing in her face and her offer Pip to kiss her might originate from the fact that she at present sees that Pip is no weakling. Although I wonder how he could so easily have felled the other male child; mayhap it'southward doing daily chores that gives him brawn. Be that as it may, I would think that Estella will value her power over Pip all the more at present that she sees that he can stand his ain ground in other contexts.
message 16: by Linda (new)
I was as well surprised by the challenge given by this other boy to Pip and past Pip'southward ability to knock down this boy three times. Information technology seemed to me that this other boy was probably used to challenging others to fight, he seemed and so at ease in doing so, and then I would accept expected him to be able to get in at least a knock or two. As to him being a rival, I think to some extent that he seemed too good-natured for that, in my opinion. The entire scene looked to me as if challenging another to a fight was just a way of playing with other boys his age, all in good fun. Growing upwards as a girl, I don't see the "fun" in this. However, I grew up among a brother and boy cousins, and now seeing my hubby and son interact, this sort of fighting looks to be all in skillful fun, to some extent. (however, I see more than wrestling rather than total-out punching in the face!). On the other hand, who in their right heed challenges a stranger to a fight upon first meeting? And so, there probably is some corporeality of rivalry, just possibly in a softhearted manner?
I was both horrified and delighted at the scene that nosotros were presented with as Miss Havisham walked with Pip around the dusty and spider-laden bridal table. I say I was delighted because information technology was a completely unexpected horror, but the descriptions were eerie and, every bit Peter mentioned in his recap, this must exist a fun scene for movie directors to make come to life.
My favorite quote from this department, concerning the cobwebby cake on the tabular array:
and, equally I looked along the yellow area out of which I call up its seeming to grow, like a black fungus, I saw speckled-legged spiders with blotchy bodies running home to it, and running out from it, as if some circumstance of the greatest public importance had merely transpired in the spider community.
Equally an aside, I am currently also reading Endurance: Shackleton'south Incredible Voyage, and this morning I read a part about the Antarctic winters where there is no daylight for nigh 4 months total and it is noted that it is a hard time to live in darkness for so long and that many a men have gone mad trying to do and then. The volume goes on to chronicle an incident aboard another ship, the Belgica, where in 1899 the coiffure succumbed to melancholy during this long winter and "In order to showtime the terrifying symptoms of insanity they saw in themselves, they took to walking in a circle around the ship. The route came to be known as 'madhouse promenade'." Now, if that doesn't remind me of Miss Havisham in this affiliate, walking around her table in that awful night and dusty room, while I'thousand wondering at her state of listen, I don't know what does!
Lynne - the 'madhouse promenade' reminds me of stereotypy, which is repeating a movement over and over again. As I remember, it's presumed to be caused by stress, and yous tin see it in a lot of zoo animals. I remember the polar bear who was at the National Zoo when I was a child used to do a circuit around his enclosure, which brought him to the underwater window that we looked through. As we stood there, he circled dozens of times, with his giant dorsum manus pushing off from the exact same spot on that window each fourth dimension. It was something to see. At the time, I didn't realize it was a stress-induced behaviour resulting from his captivity. Hopefully the "good" zoos do what they can to preclude stereotypy in their animals these days.
How interesting to think of that polar bear and equate it with Miss Havisham'due south self-imposed captivity and the stress she seems to bring on herself. Fascinating.
message 18: by Peter (new)
Modern
Linda and Mary Lou
Fascinating information from you lot both. Thank yous. My copy of GE is rapidly beingness filled with notations, references to other books, and insights. Perhaps I need to buy some other copy for fresh pages.
message 19: past Bionic Jean (final edited Feb 04, 2017 12:48PM) (new)
This is such a visual novel! No wonder it's been filmed so many times. Yet reading the passages of clarification they are then much richer and denser than can e'er be captured through pictures. Or not in the aforementioned way anyhow. Linda's pick of witty quotation came from my favourite part:
"It was spacious, and I dare say had once been handsome, but every discernible thing in information technology was covered with dust and mould, and dropping to pieces. The almost prominent object was a long tabular array with a tablecloth spread on it, as if a banquet had been in preparation when the house and the clocks all stopped together. An epergne or centrepiece of some kind was in the middle of this cloth; information technology was and so heavily overhung with cobwebs that its form was quite undistinguishable; and, equally I looked along the yellow expanse out of which I remember its seeming to grow, similar a black fungus, I saw speckled-legged spiders with blotchy bodies running home to it, and running out from it, as if some circumstances of the greatest public importance had just transpired in the spider community.
I heard the mice as well, rattling behind the panels, as if the same occurrence were of import to their interests. Only, the blackbeetles took no detect of the agitation, and groped about the hearth in a ponderous elderly way, as if they were brusk-sighted and hard of hearing, and not on terms with one some other.
These itch things had fascinated my attention and I was watching them from a distance, when Miss Havisham laid a manus upon my shoulder. In her other hand she had a crutch-headed stick on which she leaned, and she looked like the Witch of the identify."
I had completely forgotten nigh all the creepy-crawlies and just remembered the dustiness and gothic elements.
I'd also forgotten the (presumbly older Pip) narrator's knowing attitude toward the relatives of Miss Havisham.
Imagine the shock Pip received when, while immersed in this vision, Miss Havisham laid her "withered" hand upon his shoulder.
message 21: by Bionic Jean (terminal edited Feb 04, 2017 01:06PM) (new)
Exactly! The stuff of all horror films forever subsequently :)
I remember information technology'southward even more powerful being reported through immature eyes, without much perspective, knowledge of the word or a wider context. People have been speculating how erstwhile Miss Havisham is, but (without revealing spoilers here) information technology's as well to bear in mind how onetime you thought middle-aged people were when you were piffling.
There is a family story of how when I was taken to a museum as a small child, and shown an ancient tombstone, I said, "But that's even older than Grandma!"
It became a family unit motto for ever after, but was actually very meaningful to me!
Jean wrote: "it'south as well to bear in listen how old you thought middle-aged people were when you lot were little...."
Good point.
Mod
In the Chapters 1-2 thread, Jean wrote: "I have a love-hate human relationship with Pip's older sis. She's so entertaining, but such a harridan."
I accept a different sense about Mrs. Joe. For the first fourth dimension in the several I've read this book I really idea nigh what her life must have been like. She lost both her parents, her mother perhaps in childbirth, merely as far as we know she was the oldest surviving child (being 20 years older than Pip this makes sense, so I'm assuming information technology) obviously of just two surviving children. And then she would accept watched her mother give birth to child later on child, probably had to practise a lot of the child care as the older daughter, and watched the children die 1 by i.
Then her mother died, and she was saddled with Pip just most the time she would have been a young woman trying to get married (it seems from Joe that she was caring for Pip earlier they got married), which must have been hard.
She could inappreciably, living in this remote surface area (if her parents and siblings were buried out in that remote churchyard, presumably she was raised in the surface area and non in town) and being saddled with the intendance of her young blood brother, have had the telescopic for much wooing or being wooed; she had to take whoever would take her.
Unless I missed it, they take no servant, and if they did it would presumably simply exist a very young and untrained daughter. But Mrs. Joe had to do all the housework for a man and bring upwardly a boy who wasn't her own, which in that twenty-four hour period and age was a lot of work. No labor saving devices; laundry had to exist done by hand, hauling and heating water, scrubbing, wringing out, ironing; and then there'southward cooking over a forest or coal stove, preparing the vegetables (no but getting a pocketbook of frozen peas out of the freezer and popping them into the microwave), cleaning (no vacuum or floor scrubber here; sweeping, dusting, scrubbing the floors probably with xanthous soap on easily and knees) washing dishes not with overnice Palmolive soap that softens the hands, only over again hauling in h2o, heating it on the stove, washing the dishes with harsh lather and a dishrag, of course no non-stick pans just having to clean the pans with sand or a steel scrubber, and on and on. It was a hard life for a woman.
And information technology doesn't seem that either Joe or Pip did much helping around the house; at any charge per unit, none is mentioned that I recall. Joe is a very prissy man, but seems in the house to just sit past the fire and allow Mrs. Joe practise all the piece of work.
And evidently Joe doesn't do much disciplining of Pip; even when he finds out that Pip is a blatant liar, a pretty significant problem in that solar day and age, he doesn't really discipline him, but only tells him non to practise it once again. All the disciplining is left to Mrs. Joe.
All in all, it was a hard life, and from what we come across a pretty thankless i (do we e'er hear either Pip or Joe thanking her for annihilation or expressing whatever appreciation for all the work she does?). Information technology's no wonder she's a bit sour. Who wouldn't be nether those circumstances?
All in all, but from the surface given u.s.a. in the story It's like shooting fish in a barrel to similar him and not to like her. Just if we really try to expect at the life they were living, the unseen 90% of the iceberg hidden underwater, is that really fair?
Modernistic
Linda and Lynne, great comments on the walkaround and stress. Linda, I Dear the stories of Shackleton.
[OT: if others don't know him and the boggling journeying of the James Caird you must read about information technology. Either Endurance, or Frank Worley'due south Shackleton's Boat Voyage. What I notice most extraordinary is that in several long expeditions to some of the harshest and most unsafe places on earth, and despite being shipwrecked in Antarctic ice thousands of miles from whatever help, he never lost a single man.]
Mod
I merely realized how much I can chronicle to Miss Havisham being walked around and around the table.
I've been having trouble with my leg. I'thou supposed to walk, but only on flat, level ground. Well, where I alive, on a narrow rural road and a property more often than not in its original state, there'due south no such thing as flat, level ground, so a few times a day I go into the game room and walk around and around the ping-pong table, clockwise for 10 or so circuits, then counter-clockwise for 10 or and so circuits to balance things out. I hadn't associated this with Miss H until Linda'southward mail, then suddenly information technology clicked that, except for Pip'south helping hand, I'm doing exactly what she is! (And, of course, except for my MP3 player and audio books, and give thanks goodness for those or I really would go mad!)
message 26: by Bionic Jean (last edited Feb 04, 2017 04:07PM) (new)
Quite right. And some of this is in living memory ... For case all my grandmother ever used was one sort of green soap for everything, including washing sheets etc. She had no hot water on tap - had to boil it all. No washing machine, no bathroom, no inside toilet. Tin bath in front end of the coal fire. Y'all had to go exterior and upward some steps to the toilet - through the snowfall sometimes. Everything was cooked on a range in very small living room. Nonetheless she brought up a large family (including some of those aunts I mentioned).
Its no surprise really that in photographs the women looked then grim and determined. They had to be! I remember all this very clearly, as I used to visit her twice a calendar week as a child, and bring some buckets of coal up from the cellar. So I quite agree with your points, Everyman.
On the other hand, she is a ripe target for one of Dickens'south grotesque exaggerations, isn't she?
And I disagree about Joe not giving her due consideration. His life in the forge can't have been an easy ane. When he told Pip his story, it was clear that he took both Pip's sister
andPip on for life - a ready-fabricated family. He also defends Pips's sister'southward behaviour when Pip hints anything critical behind her back. No, Joe is indeed a good soul :)
bulletin 27: past Peter (new)
Mod
Everyman wrote: "In the Chapters one-2 thread, Jean wrote: "I accept a love-hate relationship with Pip'south older sister. She's and then entertaining, but such a harridan."
I take a different sense near Mrs. Joe. For the firs..."
At that place is no question that a woman's life could be just as hard as a human being'due south if the family could not afford even a adult female or girl-of-all-work. Evidently Joe could not afford such a luxury, or could it be Mrs. Joe would not permit i so that she could impose a self-inflicted martyrdom on herself?
Your comments bring united states around once more to our discussion of the narrative voice. Nosotros have detected incidences where the mature Pip has been fleetingly heard from in our story so far. Pip does feel guilt about his actions such as lying to Joe, but I have non detected any compassionate feelings towards Mrs. Joe as yet. Pip seems just to fear her. 1 could, I suppose, still love someone whom y'all fear.
Pip is being presented in these opening chapters as a more than complicated character than the earlier David Copperfield. Something tells me this novel volition offer many more questions than Dickens'south earlier novels.
It'southward non much of a comment, just Pip is in an unusual position: he is an orphan, as many of the children in Dickens's works are only his older sister has functioned as a parent (bringing him up "by hand". Joe, too, has functioned equally a parent (and a friend).
The very first paragraph of the novel is about Pip'southward name. Then the captive calls him a dog--and one expert enough to eat.
Mr Pumblechook and Mrs. Joe call Pip a "squeaker" in chapter four and imply that he might be served at the dinner tabular array.
Pumblechook early in Chapter 4 calls Pip "Sixpennorth of halfpence".
As I read I will continue to see if there are more references to Pip being like an edible animal or like a pocket-sized amount of money. Maybe there'due south a connection between nutrient, money, and who is eaten and who eats?
Certainly the spiders feasting on the wedding cake also complicates the idea of the privilege of eating and/or being eaten.
Mod
Natalie wrote: "... Pip is in an unusual position: he is an orphan, as many of the children in Dickens'due south works are .."
Not only in Dickens's works, but many others. Becky Precipitous, Jane Eyre, Tom Jones, Heathcliff, Emma, the list goes on and on.
An orphan makes a very convenient hero or heroine, because lacking parental support and oversight (and inheritance) they take to make their own way in the world, which gives much more scope for the writer'due south creativity and for putting them in situations where they have to overcome by their own intelligence and wits rather than having parents to solve their problems for them, or to arrive the manner of their going off adventuring.
message xxx: past Bionic Jean (terminal edited Feb 05, 2017 03:06AM) (new)
Natalie - good points about Pip's lack of proper noun and identity, and being classed equally an edible fauna or object. Information technology's certainly a good mode to quash a pocket-size boy'due south energetic nature - or whatsoever self-esteem. Children had to be "seen and not heard" as nosotros all know. I'chiliad put in heed of photographs of classrooms with all the children sitting at a desk with their hands folded behind their backs and the teacher with a wooden dominion ready to strike. And these were the "privileged" ones who went to school!
In David Copperfield we noticed how many name changes the protagonist went through - more than than any other I believe. Each seemed to indicate both the way he was viewed by others, and also his own sense of self-worth. If we chronicle information technology to our own personal nicknames, pet names, our friends' names for us and our formal names, it can be very revealing.
I'm besides starting to discover another motif, that of time, specifically represented by clocks. Peter, are you tallying these up for us?
Mod
Linda wrote: "The entire scene looked to me as if challenging some other to a fight was but a way of playing with other boys his age, all in good fun. Growing up as a daughter, I don't see the "fun" in this. However, I grew upwardly among a brother and boy cousins, and at present seeing my married man and son interact, this sort of fighting looks to be all in good fun, to some extent."
Boys merely like that sort of thing, trying to figure out who is better and stronger ... When my son is playing games or doing sports with me, in that location is always some amount of ambition coming into play, and he actually likes to win. The other day, he won at nine men's morris, and he was so happy he just told anybody in the family that he vanquish me. When my fiddling daughter "fights" with me, and she has the impression that she won - she looks at me and says, in guild that I practice not feel likewise bad, "We take both won, okay?" It'south funny to see how she tries to cheer me up.
I remember a similar scene to the fight in GE in 1 of the first chapters of The Adventures of Tom Sawyer. When Tom meets a male child he has never seen before, the first affair the two kids practice is claiming each other, and then they fight. Equally long equally these fights are fair and good-natured, I don't meet annihilation really bad or fell about them, merely my married woman and my son's instructor think in a different vein ;-)
Modern
Mary Lou wrote: "Lynne - the 'madhouse promenade' reminds me of stereotypy, which is repeating a movement over and over again. As I recall, it's presumed to be acquired by stress, and you can meet information technology in a lot of zoo a..."
It'due south all a matter of the size of the compounds, for starters. I recollect exactly the aforementioned thing from my childhood - just that is was an old wolf who walked effectually in circles. Nowadays, they have extremely large wolf compounds here, and I have never seen an unhappy wolf in our city'south zoo.
As to Miss Havisham: Miss Havisham'south want to be lead effectually the table with the cake seems to indicate that her whole life is revolving about that single humiliation she has suffered; it is the centre of her existence. I too noticed that strange kind of pride in information technology when she says,
"This [...] is where I will exist laid when I am dead. They shall come and wait at me here."
Come and expect at her dead body lying on the wedding table? Does she really recollect that this is some kind of achievement that should be beheld past everyone? Are her relatives supposed to feel lamentable for her? To have a bad conscience? - A piddling fleck after, she suggests that her family unit will "feast upon" her body when she is dead. And then she probably suspects that Sarah Pocket and the others will feel relieved when she is dead and they can finally get at the inheritance. - And who is that Matthew, who seems to be the simply one that refuses to grovel in line with the other legacy hunters?
Mod
Everyman wrote: "In the Chapters 1-2 thread, Jean wrote: "I accept a beloved-hate relationship with Pip's older sis. She's and so entertaining, but such a harridan."
I have a unlike sense about Mrs. Joe. For the firs..."
I am fully with you on this question, Everyman. The vast range of her daily chores, peculiarly doing the laundry and the cleaning, would also explain her sore complexion. I besides accept the impression that Pip's narrative vocalism is often very unkind on her and pretends to know motives for her actions when these motives could not really be known, and the fashion the narrator presents these motives, they are inappreciably very flattering to Mrs. Joe.
The narrator'south treatment of Mrs. Joe also reminds me a little bit of Dickens's handling of his wife: She has borne him several children, she looked after his home and family unit, and one 24-hour interval, Dickens found her too bland for him and separated from her. Maybe, Dickens did just not appreciate what women like Mrs. Joe or Catherine Dickens did.
Modernistic
Everyman wrote: "I just realized how much I can chronicle to Miss Havisham existence walked around and around the table.
I've been having trouble with my leg. I'one thousand supposed to walk, but merely on flat, level ground. Well, ..."
At that place were situations in my studies when I went into a nearby forest, found myself a wonderful immigration and walked round and round its confines, all the while committing the contents of the lectures I had attended to my memory. When y'all want to larn, walking (in circles) is a adept mode of achieving success.
Modern
Natalie wrote: "It's not much of a comment, but Pip is in an unusual position: he is an orphan, every bit many of the children in Dickens's works are but his older sister has functioned as a parent (bringing him up "by h..."
Even the proper noun "Pip" itself seems to suggest smallness or mayhap even meanness - not in the sense of being nasty, but being of little accout. I cannot aid thinking of orangish pips whenever I read that name.
message 36: by Peter (terminal edited Feb 05, 2017 09:09AM) (new)
Modern
Jean wrote: "Natalie - good points about Pip's lack of name and identity, and being classed equally an edible animal or object. It's certainly a good mode to quash a pocket-sized boy's energetic nature - or whatsoever self-esteem...."
Jean
As yous noted, Natalie has come up across the fact that Pip is often existence classed as "an edible animal or object." I think that is a corking observation and Natalie is on to something interesting and information technology deserves following. Your ascertainment that there seems to be a very clear and continuous reference to time, "specifically represented by clocks" is yet some other fundamental motif. If we could aggrandize the concept of fourth dimension beyond simply clocks we volition possibly run into the concept of time tumbling down upon our story seemingly from everywhere. Something certainly to keep our optics open up for likewise.
My focus and then far in our reading has been on fighting and other actions of violence. I'one thousand non sure if Natalie wants to continue tracking the "eating" references or you would like to proceed to track the "time" references or not.
I have learned a new give-and-take -stereotypy. Volition I be labelled stereotypic if I at present obsessively track references to violence, eating and time? I believe that fighting, eating and time might all go keys to our agreement and appreciation of the novel. Wot larks!
:-)
bulletin 37: by Bionic Jean (final edited February 05, 2017 09:11AM) (new)
I retrieve we're all relying on you to exercise exactly that Peter :) Information technology was you who drew my attention to Dickens's continual references to clocks and birds every bit metaphors in the first identify.
P.S. I'm non sure "What larks!" tin can count as a bird reference even so ...
message 38: by Peter (new)
Mod
Jean wrote: "I think nosotros're all relying on y'all to do exactly that Peter :) It was y'all who drew my attention to Dickens'southward continual references to clocks and birds every bit metaphors in the first place.
P.S. I'm non su..."
Get-go I laughed when I saw the picture show of the van yous posted. Now I'm laughing again.
I shall acuminate my pencil, buy a new notepad, and get to piece of work on tracking for yous. This will be my challenge for GE ... Can I track more than i central symbol/metaphor/troupe and not exist labelled stereotypic? Natalie ... assist ....
I will near definitely count "Wot larks"every bit a bird reference.
message 39: by Bionic Jean (concluding edited Feb 05, 2017 10:11AM) (new)
LOL Peter - It is then lovely to be once more in the company of people who appreciate the absurd, as the great man himself did, and in a prophylactic space :)
Modernistic
Tristram wrote: As to Miss Havisham: Miss Havisham's want to be lead around the tabular array with the block seems to bespeak that her whole life is revolving near that single humiliation she has suffered; it is the centre of her being. "
Very nice observation.
Modern
"It's a great cake. A bride-cake. Mine!"
John McLenan
1860
Harper's Weekly
Text Illustrated:
"I crossed the staircase landing, and entered the room she indicated. From that room, too, the daylight was completely excluded, and it had an airless smell that was oppressive. A fire had been lately kindled in the damp quondam-fashioned grate, and it was more disposed to leave than to fire up, and the reluctant smoke which hung in the room seemed colder than the clearer air,--similar our own marsh mist. Certain wintry branches of candles on the loftier chimney-piece faintly lighted the chamber; or it
would be more expressive to say, faintly troubled its darkness. It was spacious, and I cartel say had one time been handsome, simply every discernible thing in it was covered with dust and mould, and dropping to pieces. The most prominent object was a long table with a tablecloth spread on it, equally if a feast had been in preparation when the house and the clocks all stopped together. An epergne or heart-piece of some kind was in the heart of this cloth; information technology was so heavily overhung with cobwebs that its
course was quite undistinguishable; and, as I looked along the yellow surface area out of which I recollect its seeming to abound, like a black fungus, I saw speckle-legged spiders with blotchy bodies running home to it, and running out from information technology, every bit if some circumstances of the greatest public importance had simply transpired in the spider customs.
I heard the mice too, rattling behind the panels, as if the aforementioned
occurrence were important to their interests. Only the black beetles took no notice of the agitation, and groped about the hearth in a ponderous elderly mode, as if they were short-sighted and hard of hearing, and not on terms with i some other.
These crawling things had fascinated my attention, and I was watching them from a altitude, when Miss Havisham laid a hand upon my shoulder. In her other mitt she had a crutch-headed stick on which she leaned, and she looked like the Witch of the place.
"This," said she, pointing to the long table with her stick, "is where I will be laid when I am expressionless. They shall come and look at me here."
With some vague misgiving that she might get upon the tabular array then and at that place and die at once, the complete realization of the ghastly waxwork at the Off-white, I shrank under her touch.
"What do y'all think that is?" she asked me, again pointing with her stick; "that, where those cobwebs are?"
"I can't judge what it is, ma'am."
"It's a great cake. A bride-cake. Mine!"
Modern
"He said, 'Aha! would you lot?' and began dancing backward and forward"
Chapter 11
F. A. Fraser.
1877
Household Edition
Text Illustrated:
"When I had exhausted the garden and a greenhouse with zippo in it but a fallen-down grape-vine and some bottles, I found myself in the dismal corner upon which I had looked out of the window. Never questioning for a moment that the firm was at present empty, I looked in at another window, and found myself, to my great surprise, exchanging a broad stare with a stake young gentleman with cherry eyelids and low-cal pilus.
This pale young gentleman quickly disappeared, and reappeared beside me. He had been at his books when I had found myself staring at him, and I now saw that he was inky.
"Halloa!" said he, "young fellow!"
Halloa beingness a general ascertainment which I had ordinarily observed to be best answered past itself, I said, "Halloa!" politely omitting young fellow.
"Who permit you in?" said he.
"Miss Estella."
"Who gave you leave to prowl most?"
"Miss Estella."
"Come and fight," said the pale young gentleman.
What could I do only follow him? I have often asked myself the question since; but what else could I do? His manner was so concluding, and I was so astonished, that I followed where he led, as if I had been under a spell.
"Stop a minute, though," he said, wheeling round before nosotros had gone many paces. "I ought to give you a reason for fighting, besides. At that place information technology is!"
In a most irritating manner he instantly slapped his hands against i another, daintily flung 1 of his legs up behind him, pulled my hair, slapped his easily again, dipped his head, and butted it into my tummy.
The balderdash-like proceeding terminal mentioned, besides that information technology was
unquestionably to be regarded in the calorie-free of a freedom, was
specially disagreeable only after bread and meat. I therefore hit out at him and was going to hit out once again, when he said, "Aha! Would you?" and began dancing backwards and forwards in a style quite unparalleled within my express experience."
Mod
"An Unexpected Pleasure For Pip"
Harry Furniss
1910
Dicken's Library Edition
Text Illustrated:
"When I got into the courtyard, I found Estella waiting with the keys.
Just she neither asked me where I had been, nor why I had kept her
waiting; and in that location was a bright flush upon her face, as though something
had happened to please her. Instead of going straight to the gate, likewise,
she stepped back into the passage, and beckoned me.
"Come hither! Y'all may kiss me, if you like."
I kissed her cheek as she turned it to me. I call up I would have gone
through a peachy deal to kiss her cheek. But I felt that the buss was
given to the coarse common boy as a slice of money might take been, and
that it was worth nothing.
What with the birthday visitors, and what with the cards, and what with
the fight, my stay had lasted so long, that when I neared abode the light
on the spit of sand off the point on the marshes was gleaming against
a blackness night-sky, and Joe's furnace was flinging a path of burn down across
the road."
message 44: past Kim (last edited Feb 06, 2017 11:54AM) (new)
Mod
Pip and Miss Havisham
Affiliate 11
Charles Green
Gadshill Edition
The Annotated Dickens provides the post-obit caption, which is not in the original Gadshill Edition:
Miss Havisham laid a manus upon my shoulder. In her other hand she had a crutch-headed stick on which she leaned, and she looked similar the Witch of the place.
"This," said she pointing to the long table with her stick, "is where I shall exist laid when I am dead. They shall come and expect at me here."
Text Illustrated:
"She held the head of her stick confronting her heart as she stood looking
at the table; she in her once white apparel, all yellow and withered; the
once white cloth all yellow and withered; everything around in a state
to crumble under a touch.
"When the ruin is complete," said she, with a ghastly look, "and when
they lay me dead, in my bride'south dress on the bride'south table,--which shall
be done, and which will exist the finished curse upon him,--and so much the
better if it is done on this day!"
She stood looking at the table as if she stood looking at her own figure
lying in that location. I remained tranquillity. Estella returned, and she likewise remained
quiet. It seemed to me that we connected thus for a long time. In
the heavy air of the room, and the heavy darkness that brooded in its
remoter corners, I fifty-fifty had an alarming fancy that Estella and I might
presently brainstorm to decay."
Mod
In that location are times in my search for illustrations something comes up that, while interesting, if I tin can't find where information technology came from I commonly skip it. This one I can't resist.
message 46: by Peter (new)
Modern
Kim wrote: "There are times in my search for illustrations something comes upward that, while interesting, if I can't find where information technology came from I commonly skip it. This one I tin can't resist.
"
Kim
Cheers. This is a fascinating paradigm. Cake, cane, clock and candle. Sorry, could not resist all the "c''s. And and so all those spider/dust webs. The single mouse/rat at the bottom middle looking up at her is downright creepy.
Love it.
Kim wrote: "There are times in my search for illustrations something comes upward that, while interesting, if I tin't detect where it came from I usually skip it. This one I tin't resist."
Looks a bit similar Edward Gorey's work. I know he did some Dickens illustrations, but I don't know nearly this one.
Modern
Mary Lou wrote: "Looks a chip like Edward Gorey's piece of work. I know he did some Dickens illustrations, but I don't know about this ane. ."
He at least did a Dour Firm for the Literary Guild of America, which you lot can buy second-manus for $9 including shipping if you lot intendance.
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Book...
bulletin 50: by Tristram (last edited February 09, 2017 03:28AM) (new)
Modern
Wow, Kim, what a fascinating picture show. Reminds me of the Chinese shadow plays, and I can easily imagine an animation film of GE working that manner. Information technology seems to reinforce my impression that GE is bes in black and white ;-)
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Source: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/18456512-ge-chapter-011
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